ariestess: All right, welcome to the Small Fandoms panel. I am once again your host, but I promise this is my last panel in here today. LOL!
ariestess: Will our panelists please introduce themselves?
Xenavirgin: Have you got Gatorade on IV drip or something AJ??
Xenavirgin: You’re everywhere.
ariestess: @XV: Nope, but I’m making Doggie get me more coffee soonish. I still have the OUaT panel after this.
Shatterpath: She is a multitasking demon
Tamoline: I’m Tamoline, adn I have a problem – I tend to dot around between fandoms with a fair degree of frequency. My main is Godd Wife, but I’ve also written for Ultraviolet (TV), Indexing, Person of Interest
Tamoline: And also many spolling errers
Xenavirgin: But such creative spolling errerrs.
ariestess: I promise I’ll gag my inner beta.
ariestess: All right, like in previous panels, please raise your hands if you’ve got a question.
Alsike: Hi, I’m Alsike. I’ve written for a couple of small fandoms, and uh, kind of built a small crossover fandom – which Tamoline has also written awesome stuff for.
Tamoline: Thank you. Yes, Alsike is directly responsible for me starting to write fanfic
ariestess: XV: you’ve got the first question.
Xenavirgin: Can I please get clarification of what exactly constitutes a small fandom? Is Wicked considered a small fandom?
ariestess: LOL! I was actually just going to start with that very thing, so GMTA!
Alsike: Well, I tend to write for things like the Guild – where there are like 3 fics. So I’d say that’s actually a reasonably sized fandom.
ariestess: For me, a small fandom is one that doesn’t get a lot of “airtime” so to speak. My classic examples of personal small fandoms are Poltergeist: the Legacy [are you impressed that it took until now for me to mention it this year?] and bedtime.
ariestess: I believe I am the SOLE person to write for bedtime and I have 2 fics up.
ariestess: It was a miniseries on Showtime back in the mid-90s that featured Felicity Huffman and Susan Gibney as lesbian lovers.
jazwriter: I like several small fandoms: The Good Wife, Damages, Political Animals
ariestess: Actually, I think bedtime qualifies as miniscule, rather than small.
mandygirl78: Could we use the number of stories posted on FF.net as a litmus test?
Gin Akasarahsmom: I write for the smallest fandom of all… a pilot was never even made.. the series was only talked about one year at Dragoncon…. Hourglass.. 😛
Alsike: the Good Wife is small, but it’s all really high quality. That’s the best kind.
ariestess: I usually use FF.net and AO3 as my litmus test, to be honest.
booklover81: Based on the number of total stories or femslash stories?
mandygirl78: to determine if it’s a small fandom or not
ariestess: It depends on what your focus is. For this con, we’d look at femslash.
Xenavirgin: So say, there are say 150 fics for a fandom unlike the 10000+ for Xena, or 4000 + for Vyager, would that still count?
ariestess: Okay, let’s take our next question from Liberty Stewart.
ariestess: Yes, XV.
Liberty Stewart: Who else here gets inspiration to write fic for small fandoms not because there’s femslash potential, but because you legitimately like the show/movie and were inspired after watching it?
Shatterpath: oh, heck yes I’ve had that happen! Good question
Tamoline: I think Ultraviolet for me qualifies.
Alsike: Mmm, if I really like something I rarely write fic for it. I have to have a problem I need to fix.
ariestess: Great question! I’ve done that before. I can’t think of the fandoms atm, but I’ve done it.
Alsike: (usually the problem is not enough femslash)
jazwriter: @Liberty…that’s exactly what draws me to smaller fandoms–if the story line and characterizations were compelling
Gin Akasarahsmom: I wouldn’t ever write for a show I don’t like
Tamoline: The women meet for about 5 minutes during the actual series, so any potential istrictly limited. It’s just where it could go from there
yurianimeotaku: I write Yuri, which is considered a small fandom in Femslash.
Tamoline: Person of Interest too, thinking about it
Shatterpath: I did an epic Sky Captain fic that I still reread regularly
Xenavirgin: @Gin snap.
mandygirl78: Tam: I’m surprise to see a femslash story out of that show.
Tamoline: Well, yes. I’ve only seen the first series, but I can’t help think it would *interesting* if Zoe Morgan and Joss Carter met up
mandygirl78: @Yuri: That depends. All the Sailor Moon femslash stories could rival a few regular femslash fandoms
Tamoline: They’re both very strong female characters
ariestess: I want to write for Cult, but not sure I even can.
Liberty Stewart: @gin: some people seem only drawn to a show for it’s subtext. Rizzolo and Isle is one that comes to mind although that show pretty much gay baits from what I hear.
Tamoline: And there’s ample reason for Zoe to seek out someone like Carter
Alsike: I wrote for Kannazuki no Miko once, which I think counts as a small yuri fandom. But I also wrote sailor moon, which is not.
Alkmaion: Don´t know if mean Girls has a small fandom, but when Gretchen is all teary about not being able to wear her earrings, the gift of her parents…that got me…
mandygirl78: KnM, my favorite yuri fandom…
booklover81: There have been times that I’m only watched a show/movie because I heard of the femslash potential. But there are times I watch something not expecting femslash and I get hit in the head by it.
Alkmaion: Ah, that was to LS question
ariestess: All right, Shatterpath, you’ve got the next question.
Gin Akasarahsmom: There is no other reason to watch Rizzoli and Isles.. besides the character interplay… the ‘crime’ stories really suck
Shatterpath: Could rare pairings be considered a parallel to small fandoms?
Alsike: In that you get like three readers and people scroll right past? Yes.
Tamoline: Also, depending, you might not have the support network that larger pairings provide
Alsike: at least with rare pairs people who love the fandom might give it a chance.
Xenavirgin: @Shatterpath, I’d probably give that a yes. Within DWP the ratio between Emily/Miranda and all the other pairings is glaring.
Shatterpath: PArticularly in a popular fandom with lots of OTP
ariestess: I include rare pairings with small fandoms.
Liberty Stewart: @shatter: I just consider them obscure pairings. If they’re from say OUAT, that’s not a small fandom.
Alsike: even the minor pairings in OUAT have a decent following.
Shatterpath: OUaT was actually what got me thinking
ariestess: Good point, Liberty.
Shatterpath: Like, Ruby is my fave chacter, but she doesn’t get a lot of fic
grumpybear1031: Jill/Cindy in WMC
Shatterpath: similiar difficulties in finding fans, etc
mrschimpf: I write Gilmore Girls, which has a large, large het fandom (top ten on FF.net), but the femslash out of it is much smaller in comparison so it’s definitely considered a small fandom in that sense.
Alsike: Mmm, rubyfic.
mandygirl78: or obscure pairing in the het world
Tamoline: I guess that I might class Avengers like that too
ariestess: Okay, wolvie_dk has the next question.
wolvie_dk: Are there any big fandoms/pairings you are surprised have become big? Conversely, are there any small or non-existant fandoms/pairings you had thought would become huge, but haven’t?
Liberty Stewart: @mandy: yeah some femslash pairings just have the unfortunacy to be in a het central fandom.
Alkmaion: waves to Mrs*
Xenavirgin: @ Wolvie I get surprised looks/comments all the time when I mention the size of the DWP/Mirandy fandom.
Xenavirgin: ANd that it’s still going alive and well 7 years after the film.
booklover81: @Wolvie – I’m still surprised at the size of the Bomb Girls fandom.
Liberty Stewart: DWP is definitely one that surprised me in how it became so big in femslash.
ariestess: DWP just blows my mind.
Xenavirgin: BOOM Bwahahahahaah
Liberty Stewart: Then again Anne and Emily have quite a large lesbian following, so that probably played a part in it.
Xenavirgin: You think Meryl doesn’t?? lolol
Gin Akasarahsmom: LOL…it’s Miranda/Andy…. Andy/Emily is a smaller portion of the fandom
Gin Akasarahsmom: The main pairing is Miranda/Andy
Gin Akasarahsmom: Meryl/Anne
Alsike: I just read all the Emily/Serena fics.
jazwriter: have you seen how many actresses kiss Meryl on the lips?! lol
Gin Akasarahsmom: Emily/Serena is a great pair.. but a small section of the whole fandom
Liberty Stewart: Oh right, Meryl is the central focus of that fandom. Which kind of blows my mind since when did she became a lesbian icon?
Nikkeh: E/S is my DWP OTP
Alsike: sooo small.
Xenavirgin: Sinse I saw her in Kramer v Kramer Liberty. lolol
mandygirl78: Well she was a lesbian in that Woody Allen movie back in the 70s, right?
ariestess: mandygirl78, you’ve got the next question.
jazwriter: @Liberty Out of Africa!
yurianimeotaku: Meryl is a lesbian and gay icon
mandygirl78: I got two questions
mandygirl78: I brought this up on Beta panel, so I might as well bring it up here for those who weren’t here at the time. How does one go about finding a beta for small fandoms?
e_m_praetorian: Meryl was in Silkwood with Cher whose character was a lesbian…there was an implied relationship
Alkmaion: @yuri: The Hours, too
Tamoline: My answer is dragoon your wife
Liberty Stewart: @mandy: I search ff.net’s beta reader’s section.
Tamoline: Which is probably a less than helpful answer in general.
ariestess: @mandy: Ask around. You never know who might be interested.
yurianimeotaku: Yeah, where are the Silkwood and Hours femslash fics?
ariestess: And your second question?
mandygirl78: Yeah, but what if they all say no
ariestess: Well, if they say no, then do what you can. I’ve gotten people interested in PtL in the past, so…
ariestess: Not enough to write it, but to watch and offer to beta.
Liberty Stewart: @yuri: which is why it’s even stranger the Meryl love is solely focused on DWP. Is it only because Anne’s in it?
mrschimpf: I used to send out my work but lately I’ve had to take to self-beta because it’s hard to find people in a fandom who both know your show and are accepting of femslash. Esp. for shows with heavy pop culture references you have to be pitch perfect with how you write.
ariestess: That’s true. A lot of popular fandoms don’t have a big femslash presence.
Liberty Stewart: @mrs: which fandom is that?
ariestess: What I think is even harder is having a small fandom and an OC involved.
mrschimpf: Gilmore Girls…I usually write Paris/Rory and Paris/Lorelai but the fandoms are heavily bent towards Lorelai/Luke.
mandygirl78: Thanks. Most was already answered in Beta. My other question is: Would a very popular fandom at one time, but is no longer popular considered a “small fandom”? (like Once and Again, and pretty soon, Bad Girls)
Gin Akasarahsmom: Liberty.. I think Meryl is great.. but I ADORE Miranda… it’s Miranda that I focus on… the character is fantastic
ariestess: Babylon 5 Susan/Talia has been listed as a rare pairing/small fandom again.
ariestess: Well, based on a couple of exchanges I’ve done at least.
e_m_praetorian: @LS: I think that is part of it as per DWP.
Gin Akasarahsmom: it is AJ… sadly… Susan/Talia is fading, because B5 has been off the air for so long
Xenavirgin: @ Mandy, that’s a tough one. I’d say they were still large because of the corpus of material still out there.
yurianimeotaku: @Gin Younger writers haven’t seen B5. My ex-wife introduced me YEARS after it went off the air.
Liberty Stewart: @mrs: that sucks. I usually don’t get that problem with small fandoms cause they’re always used in a crossover.
booklover81: @ariestess – It might be because I wasn’t around when the ship first came into being, but I’ve always considered it a small fandom.
Alkmaion: Talia, sadly, never clicked with me…Susan/Lyta would have been interesting I think
Gin Akasarahsmom: exactly… it’s been off the air for so long many younger writers haven’t seen it or know the awesomness of it
ariestess: All right, XV, you’ve got the next question.
Alsike: a small active fandom is comparable to a real small fandom, but not for a reader.
Gin Akasarahsmom: I loved Talia… Lyta always left me cold
e_m_praetorian: @Gin and yuri: B5 was a pleasure to watch and that kind relationship had so much potential
Alkmaion: well, bester wanted her body…okay, not a quality sign *g*
Xenavirgin: What do you think about fandoms that go all the way back to old shows or books like Wonder Woman and Anne of Green Gables. I’ve read two Anne books that pair Anne and Diana and I’d looove to see some fic from Wonder woman. Would they, as nostalgia pieces be doomed to small fandomhood?
yurianimeotaku: @Gin I just love badass Susan. I long for strong female characters like her again.
Xenavirgin: @ Gin, I promise not to say anything to Pat, heheheh
Tamoline: @XV – I’d guess so, unless you could manage to interest enough people in it again to make it take off
Gin Akasarahsmom: rofl… tell her if you want… Claudia knows my preference for the Susan/Talia pair..
Alsike: I think for yuletide and stuff it can work. Because the fandom is small, but it’s well known, so people might give it a chance when rolling through the list.
ariestess: I love when there are book fandoms.
ariestess: One of my favorite book series is a small fandom, and the femslash is non-existent, which I don’t mind.
Xenavirgin: @ AJ, I am SOOO not surprised at that. lolol
jazwriter: isn’t there a Wonder Woman movie coming out? That might stir up interest
ariestess: Of course, the author has an issues with anything above PG anyway for fanfic, so I totally respect that.
Alsike: you know it’s a small fandom when…. ‘the author’
booklover81: @jaz – No Wonder Woman movie announced at SDCC
yurianimeotaku: @ariestess Don’t forget to add stage fandoms. I like Takarazuka and there is next to nothing out there.
ariestess: @Als: Pretty much!
Xenavirgin: @ Alsike. heheh Nice.
e_m_praetorian: @Jaz: If they could ever decide on an actress or script.
ariestess: Stage fandoms are a strange bird, to say the least. Most of what I’ve seen of them is RPF, which I don’t follow.
e_m_praetorian: been in works off and on for years
ariestess: Wicked aside, of course.
Gin Akasarahsmom: if they do green light a new Wonder Woman movie, do you think there will be a bunch of fanfic to follow it?
mandygirl78: But sometimes small and close is better than large and loose, in terms of fandom.
yurianimeotaku: @ariestess RPF?
Alsike: Before I knew what fandom was I wrote guys and dolls/Anything goes crossovers.
ariestess: @yuri: Real Person Fic
jazwriter: bummer re: WW movie
Gin Akasarahsmom: I have a small fandom in Bionic Woman.. the original.. but I know there is a lot more fanfic based on the newer version…
Nikkeh: it depends if they decide to not have any other women in the wonder woman movie
booklover81: @Gin – If they included some of the characters from the comics … maybe. If the movie was handled correctly
e_m_praetorian: @Gin: I would think so given the spin on Amazon background.
ariestess: michelle_2011, you have the next question.
michelle_2011: There is some Sanctuary fan fic out on the web. Would you call it a small fandom?
booklover81: For femslash, yes.
Nikkeh: i doubt they’ll do anythinig with the amazon BG.
Tamoline: @michelle – I’d say so, yes
Xenavirgin: YEAH mICHEKKE i WOULD CALL IT SMALL.
ariestess: If there’s not a lot of it, then yes, it’s a small fandom. I didn’t watch it, so am not into the fandom.
Nikkeh: would you count RENT a small fandom?
Gin Akasarahsmom: what pairing do they use in Sanctuary? Helen and an original character?
Xenavirgin: Ooops sorry didn’t mean to shout my finger slipped to caps lock.
Alsike: I was wondering…
booklover81: @Gin – Helen/Kate Freelander is my OTP
Nikkeh: oh shoot sorry for going out of order
Gin Akasarahsmom: ah
ariestess: In general, no. for femslash, if it’s not Joanne/Maureen, yes.
Xenavirgin: All the Sanctuary ones I’ve seen have been Xovers with her daughter and someone from a different fandom, or with Helen and someone else.
Tamoline: @Gin – and there’s also the canon lesbian one involving Helen
the_dhamphir: Helen also had a canon lesbian love interest
michelle_2011: Helen mostly with a F sometimes from the show sometimes from a crossover character
Gin Akasarahsmom: yeah.. I know that one… but that character wasn’t very well explored… didn’t show up in the next episode…
e_m_praetorian: @Nikkeh: Which would ruin the character since that is what she is.
ariestess: Nikkeh, did you still have a question, or was that it?
Xenavirgin: Yeah and it was sooooooo Hot D.
the_dhamphir: I could never see her with Freelander because she was her daughter’s age
Tamoline: Though from her actual age, *anyone* is pretty much her daughter’s age, give or take
ariestess: booklover81, you have the next question.
the_dhamphir: perhaps. but kate was more immature than the canon love interest
Nikkeh: i did have a question but i forgot. i think it was GOT related
booklover81: Any tips on getting more people interested in your small fandom of choice?
Alsike: write lots and lots of fic for it.
Nikkeh: im a little drunk/hungoever
ariestess: Pimp it out everywhere. Write a ship/show manifesto. Share links to where they can find the source materials.
Alsike: sometimes people will get annoyed and be like – okay, what the hell is this?
mandygirl78: If you write it good, they will come… LOL!
Tamoline: Ficathons have been responsible for me getting into more than one fandom
Kayryn: @booklover, just create stuff.. write a fic, make fanart, spread the word
Kayryn: and hi, everyone
Alsike: and find marketing opportunities. Eyes = readers.
Kayryn: late for the party
ariestess: mandygirl78, you’ve got the next question.
Alsike: (lots of pervy A03 tags can be effective)
booklover81: Thanks for the suggestions.
the_dhamphir: I’ve tried PtL because AJ… doesn’t mean I ended up liking the show, but I was willing to check it out, because she kept pimping it… lol
ariestess: LOL @ alsike
mandygirl78: Do you think some pairings could have gone big, but the owners of that pairing ruined it (like Archie Comic’s ban on fan fiction ruining Betty/Veronica fandom)
ariestess: I will NEVER stop pimping PtL.
the_dhamphir: i know.
Nikkeh: what is PtL?
ariestess: Poltergeist: the Legacy
Nikkeh: thank you
Alsike: is that why there isn’t any B/V stuff? It always annoys me!
mandygirl78: Yep Als
Xenavirgin: Unfortunately AJ, I am a total wuss and do NOT do any kind of horror. I still have nightmares for a radio commercial I heard when I was 6!
ariestess: Good question, mandy! I think that’s a huge thing in killing some potential fandoms.
Kayryn: @mandy, I think there are those cases yes. banning fanfic is a way to pretty much kill the fandom
Kayryn: all that the fans are left with is uber fic and fanart
ariestess: *shakes head @ XV* Nah, it’s okay. I know my baby’s not for everyone.
Alsike: (except LOTS, where people were like, haha TGoodkind, you don’t have a say anymore.)
mandygirl78: though the new management at AC seems to be more tolerant
ariestess: And we have 15 minutes left of this panel. The time has been flying today.
ariestess: Nikkeh, you have the next question.
Alsike: I feel like someone needs to pitch Archie a good B/V oneshot script and make it canon.
Alsike: they did the genderswap one.
Liberty Stewart: @mandy: I disagree about write good fanfic and they will come. In ff.net bad fic usually gets more comments then good ones.
mandygirl78: @lib – i was just kidding
Nikkeh: omg im so sorry i just got a fic update
Nikkeh: does game of thrones cout as a small fandom
ariestess: Is there a lot of fanfic for it? Particularly femslash?
Alsike: there’s fic, not too much femslash. (but what’s there is good)
Nikkeh: its really hard to tell. the gay pairings overpower the fandom
Kithri: Re: Killing ships. I think that the way canon progresses/treats fan favourite characters can also put off potential fic writers. There’s a fine line between prompting ‘fix-it’ fics and just killing enthusiasm.
Nikkeh: i dont think so.
ariestess: If there’s not a lot, then it would be a small fandom.
ariestess: booklover81, you have the next question.
Tamoline: I’ve seen a fair amount on AO3, mainly Sansa/Margaery
booklover81: Tumblr: Good or bad for small fandoms?
ariestess: good question!
Kayryn: I think tumblr is a good way to promote small fandoms
Nikkeh: i think its a good way of inding small fandoms
Kayryn: I mean every bit of visibility helps
Nikkeh: *finding. especially if they’re tagged
ariestess: Nikkeh, you have the last question.
mrschimpf: I think it’s helped. The small fandoms I read get propped up by isolated GIFs of scenes and quotes when they’re tagged, which is good for those ships and fandoms.
mandygirl78: I hate tumblr…
Kayryn: I’ve lately gotten into Major Crimes (Sharon/Andrea) and yeah, it’s small but ppl tend to find stuff easy
ariestess: I have a love/hate relationship with tumblr
Nikkeh: if anyone watches game of thrones
Xenavirgin: Me Me ME
Nikkeh: or reads
Xenavirgin: Me Me Me lolol
Tamoline: We watch it
Liberty Stewart: I’ve seen the series. Don’t understand it’s large appeal.
Alsike: I went to a panel on it at a Medieval studies conference
booklover81: I’m in the middle of reading it. Attempted to watch it after reading and couldn’t stand the disconnect.
Nikkeh: would it possible to have a lesbian pairing or even just a character on the whow
ariestess: I’ve not seen GoT, but my bestie is working on getting me to watch it.
Tamoline: Do you mean a lasting one?
booklover81: There’s canon lesbian relationships in the book
Nikkeh: that wasnt killed off
Xenavirgin: Well Danerys has a lesbian fling with one of her serving girls in the books.
mandygirl78: Game of Thorns is alright, but it’s not as big as they hype it up to be.
Nikkeh: i did mean a lasting one
Tamoline: Characters that aren’t killed off in GoT?
Kayryn: I’m kinda on and off with it, cos everyone I get attached to dies
Nikkeh: because loras and renly were a thing
Alsike: i don’t think there can be any really lasting positive romantic relationship in GoT
booklover81: I want to say there is, but I’m not done with the book yet
ariestess: And we’re down to the last 5 minutes. I’d like to thank our panelists & attendees for a fantastic panel.
Nikkeh: me neither
Alsike: it’s like life, it always ends in tragedy.
booklover81: And I agree with Alsike.
Nikkeh: thats the entire point of the series too XP
booklover81: Thanks everyone!
Nikkeh: Yeah thanks a bunch
Kayryn: okay, heading over to room one. bye!
Alkmaion: thanks to all of you!