Non-US Fandoms

fsc_ralst: So, non-US fandoms – that’s fandoms from countries other than America, obviously, English language or not

Ceridwyn2: ok

Aquila1nz: Then, hi I’m Aquila from NZ

Ceridwyn2: Got in here just fine

Alkmaion: hey again

Ceridwyn2: Ceridwyn2 from Canada

Aquila1nz: yay, Ceri

fsc_ralst: Out of curiosity, who here is from a country outside the US?

Alkmaion: Austria

Aquila1nz: Recently I’ve been doing femsllash recaps of a local soap, Shortland St, which I think is why ralst invited me

tristianmakhai: Australia, here.

Aquila1nz: yay, Aussie

fsc_ralst: England here

Aquila1nz: I’ve got a question for everyone here, what actually constitutes a non-US source?

fsc_ralst: So, the big question, and perhaps the most obvious, why do so few non-US fandoms seem to take off in femslash circles?

Aquila1nz: When I firt saw the paenl description I presumed made for US shows weren’t included, even if they used local cast and crew, like Xena and stargate, BSG, spartacus

michelle_2011: language or culture does not translate as well maybe

Alkmaion: I´d say critical mass, with being known on the net and not

Aquila1nz: i think it’s hugely critical mass

fsc_ralst: US produced and for US networks etc = US fandoms

Ceridwyn2: sorry about that

Ceridwyn2: Canada

yurianimeotaku: So US shows filmed outside the US are considered what?

Aquila1nz: they’re US shows

Aquila1nz: NZers think of Xena as a US show

fsc_ralst: Xena is a US show, even though it stars a New Zealander and was filmed there

Aquila1nz: we’re still proiud of it (and embarrassed by it), but it’s american, not Kiwi

fsc_ralst: Critical mass in what way, audience?

tristianmakhai: In Aus, I also get the feeling that we simply just don’t take our own media very seriously. The go-to option with television programing is ‘import!’. As viewers, we’re becoming conditioned to automatically defer to American (and some Brit) programming.

Aquila1nz: audience, online advertising

Ceridwyn2: Much of SG series – SG1, Atlantis were filmed in Canada and had at least half of the cast & crew are Canadian

Aquila1nz: NZ gets about 1/3 US programming, 1/3 brit and aussie, 1/3 local

Ceridwyn2: but US produced

nate555_1_1: Why no camera

Ceridwyn2: Lost Girl, Being Erica, Bomb Girls are Canadian

fsc_ralst: this is a text only chat

Aquila1nz: yes, they’re Canadian

Aquila1nz: is Sanctuary Candian?

Ceridwyn2: yes

yurianimeotaku: If it weren’t for After Ellen, I would never know about non-US shows and if it weren’t for the nice folks in Canada, Germany, Spain, and NZ, I would never see those shows.

nate555_1_1: Hey anybody wanta video chat yes or no

fsc_ralst: Is it a chicken and egg situation? we assume there’s no audience, so we don’t get involved, so there’s no audience?

Ceridwyn2: Even tho the SyFy channel in the US picked it up, it’s Canadian produced by Amanda Tapping

Aquila1nz: does Torchwood/Dr Who become American when they’re filming their and using American writers?

confuzzedly: ‘Lo all. Curious, which country uploads the most fic to p&p..?

nate555_1_1: Anybody

Aquila1nz: I think it can be

tristianmakhai: I think it’s more (at least as I’ve found in Australian fandoms) is, the fandoms are so small, they are difficult to find.

quietheartedfsc: nate555_1_1 was bounced from the room by: quietheartedfsc.

Aquila1nz: it cna just take a couple of keen fans for a fandom to take off

fsc_ralst: No AQ it becomes drivel

Aquila1nz: Bad Girls did

Ceridwyn2: My first into to Australian series was "Water Rats"

confuzzedly: I agree with yuri – it’s difficult for US fans to find out about shows

Aquila1nz: Lost Girl did before it hit syfy

tristianmakhai: True, Aquila. Rush, for example is probably being carried by one or two determined writers.

Ceridwyn2: and WR had a lesbian cop, Helen -she just didn’t have much in the way of relationships going on.

fsc_ralst: But what about British, Australian, Canadian, New Zealand writers, why aren’t they writing for home fandoms?

Aquila1nz: I really need to start watching Rush

Aquila1nz: it’s been on TV here, too

Ceridwyn2: I have written UK fandoms (Bad Girls, Wire in the Blood

Aquila1nz: i don’t even know who the NZ fic writers are

tristianmakhai: I’ll watch Almighty Johnsons if you watch Rush. Cultural exchange?

Aquila1nz: know more americans who write about nz than NZers

Aquila1nz: oh, you’ll enjoy Almighty Johnsons

Liberty Stewart: @Rlast: I’ve written or planning to write for plenty of characters played by homegrown actors and shows/movies.

Ceridwyn2: LOL

Aquila1nz: not qite as good as Outrageous Fortune, but a fun show

tristianmakhai: Norse gods in New Zealand, how can it go wrong?

Aquila1nz: and the godesses occasionally get feslashy

Liberty Stewart: I am the only Bomb Girls viewer here?

Ceridwyn2: Once I get done with the current season of writing OVS, then perhaps I will seek out more shows to check out

Ceridwyn2: No, I am, too

Aquila1nz: I still need to watch Bomb Girls too

fsc_ralst: So any non-US shows you’d recommend? Femslashy ones?

Ceridwyn2: I have S1 on my hard drive at home

yurianimeotaku: Lip Service

Aquila1nz: i tried brainstorming a list: http://www.flagshiptv.com/24-international-tv/3626-list-of-international-femslash-fandoms.html

Aquila1nz: more canon than subtexty, really

Aquila1nz: lip service was great

Aquila1nz: i hope they’re having a good con

Liberty Stewart: @ralst: Would recommend Bomb Girls depending what you like. They don’t reveal the lesbian character until the 6th and final episode, but it has better story and characters than Lip Service from what I’m told.

Ceridwyn2: Lip Service. If you want to go back a few yrs, there was "Sugar Rush"

confuzzedly: Thank you for creating that list Aquila. Can’t wait to check some of them out.

Aquila1nz: yeah, i watched the first seaon of sugar rush, well done stuff

Aquila1nz: i’ll add anything people suggest her to it

Aquila1nz: *here

Ceridwyn2: I like the subtexty stuff of Mel/Frankie is the first four seasons of "Waking the Dead" a UK mystery/cop series

Aquila1nz: haven’t seen everything on it, i think soem were kiss and leave the show lesbians

fsc_ralst: I haven’t seen it but from what I’ve heard Bomb Girls sounds like the sort of show that would have had a decent following if it was made states side, but I’ve not seen much for it

yurianimeotaku: I watched the first episode of BG on YouTube, but the rest were pulled before I could watch them.

Aquila1nz: yeah, i heard lovely things about bomb girls

Ceridwyn2: neither character was gay but there was a lot of a femslash vibe there

Aquila1nz: here’s the hsortland st recaps I’ve done http://www.flagshiptv.com/49-international-soaps/1700-shortland-street-recaps-spoilers-and-discussion.html

Ceridwyn2: I’m still waiting for it to come to DVD

displacedwarrior: Bomb Girls is amazing the most following I’ve found is on tumblr

confuzzedly: Bomb Girls only easily available in US via torrents..

Aquila1nz: shorty has had lesbian/bisexual characters for the last 9 or so years

docwho2100: thanks for the lists, very helpful

yurianimeotaku: I just watched a few episodes of Shortland Street.

Aquila1nz: though big gaps in romance for the bisexual charatcer over the last year or so

Liberty Stewart: I know sites that streams Bomb Girls. Could post them after this on Passion Perfect if you want.

fsc_ralst: poor Nicole

Ceridwyn2: Then there was 11 seasons of the Spanish series, "Hospital Central" with lesbian characters

Aquila1nz: yeah, I’m more and more sad abut Nicole and Maia

confuzzedly: @Liberty that would be awesome – thank you

yurianimeotaku: Some non-US shows are easier find and watch than others.

fsc_ralst: Please post streaming links privately, not onto open comms

fsc_ralst: AQ if you hear about Maia coming back, again, please let me know

Aquila1nz: I will

Aquila1nz: Hex was pretty cool, a few years ago

Aquila1nz: should have appealed to the Buffy crowd

Aquila1nz: even if the lesbian was dead

fsc_ralst: and Thelma was a hoot

Aquila1nz: love her so much

fsc_ralst: So there’s a lot of options out there, they’re just not reaching a femslash active audience

Alert: An admin joined the room: shesgottaread

Aquila1nz: what is Jemima Rooper doing now, cos i’d watch her in anything

Alkmaion: As for Germany: ‘Verbotene Liebe’ I guess

yurianimeotaku: @ralst I LOVE watching the shows, but writing femslash for them is daunting.

fsc_ralst: Jemima Rooper pops up in loads of things

fsc_ralst: @yuri why so?

Ceridwyn2: I would have loved a series with Nicola Walker in a lesbian relationship. I can’t remember if I’ve seen any Spooks/MI-5 fic with Ruth/Ros

Liberty Stewart: @ralst: How would I know who wants to watch the show then?

Aquila1nz: yeah, i didn’t put Spooks on the list did I? there defintiely was some femslash for that

fsc_ralst: @ Liberty sorry, not following you

yurianimeotaku: @ralst I feel as if I would not be able to do it justice, since I’m not from that country.

Aquila1nz: helped that it attracted the Tipping the Velvet fans

Ceridwyn2: yeah, I think Ruth/Ros or Jo/Ros

docwho2100: for me it is knowing the culture, I love Murder in Suburbia, but to know the locations and culture, etc….

Aquila1nz: Muder in Suburbia was great subtext

Ceridwyn2: Yeah, MiS was good

fsc_ralst: @yuri but plenty of non-US writers write US fandoms, it just takes getting used to, and finding a beta from that country if possible

fsc_ralst: Jo/Ros, I’m too Harry/Ruth sorry

Liberty Stewart: @ralst: You were telling me to post streaming links privately and not onto open communities, but how would I know who wants to watch the show then if it’s private?

Aquila1nz: there’s an excellend HPbritglish livejournal where people post questions about cultural stuff for writing

Ceridwyn2: Oh, I am sooo a Ruth/Harry shipper there\

Aquila1nz: could use it’s arhcives, even though it’s harry potter cenric

Ceridwyn2: One of the few fandoms where I’d go for a het pairing

fsc_ralst: @Liberty to whoever you said you post it for

Alkmaion: i know there are also some yahoo groups for questions in history, law and medicine

Aquila1nz: maybe we need a "ask questions here" femslash comm for cross cultural writing

Alkmaion: fanfic questions

Ceridwyn2: When I was writing the HC fic recently, I had two people I could pick to beta from who knew the series well enough to beta

fsc_ralst: getting to write for other cultures can be rather fun

Aquila1nz: which remind me ralst, i owe you and email

Alkmaion: also a learning experience

Aquila1nz: you learn a lot in the process

fsc_ralst: @AQ rightyho

Ceridwyn2: Plus I’m fairly meticulous with research for area when I write in a fandom. I might not use it all, but it’s there

Aquila1nz: it is worth asking someone local to check, i still remember the Uber that refered to a NZ ranch int eh first sentence

fsc_ralst: Also, writing for other countries, and having it beta’d by a native of that country, sure teaches you a lot.

Liberty Stewart: @ralst: am I allowed to post a link to my LJ with the episodes on Passion Perfect. They’re not actually on the community this way. A number of people were asking for them and I can’t remember who.

Aquila1nz: NZ doesn’t have ranches because we didn’t have the SPanish language influence, we have farms and stations

Ceridwyn2: My Spooks fic H/R, I was actually in the UK for a while, and at the places mentioned in the story. Plus my mother’s side of the family is from the UK

Aquila1nz: now there’s a good excuse to travel

Ceridwyn2: Headed back to the UK next summer for my 40th birthday

Aquila1nz: i wouldn’t be too worried writing Aussie, British or American, because we get so much of their tv

Aquila1nz: and books

Aquila1nz: but i can’t write

Ceridwyn2: when I was there last time (2006), I stayed at the Malmaison Oxford hotel, which was actually the basis for Bad Girls set

Aquila1nz: so how else do we expose people to our local shows?

Ceridwyn2: before it was turned into the hotel

Aquila1nz: it’s why I started doing recaps, to get people intrested

Ceridwyn2: I use twitter, fb or LJ for promoting shows

tristianmakhai: [laughs] Not entirely true, Aquila. Last time I was writing an American character, I was told off for it sounding to Australian (and I’m American born). It does help to have someone proof read for local turns of phrase.

yurianimeotaku: That’s another thing. The subtle language differences. While watching Lip Service, I had to look up certain phrases used in the show…and they were speaking English.

Aquila1nz: and I’e read lost of shows as recaps, when they didn’t screen here

fsc_ralst: YouTube clips is a good way, especially if you then start spreading the links through lj or tumblr or whatever

Aquila1nz: Britain is dialect heavy!

Alkmaion: german/Austrian too

Ceridwyn2: yes, it very much depends on area of the UK, too

Alkmaion: They subtitled a series from Vienna for the german audience because of the heavy dialect in the 80s

Liberty Stewart: @ralst: I don’t know who to use Youtube. I suck at technical work.

Ceridwyn2: a Manchester accent is quite different from London/SE England. Same as Glasgow has a different Scottish accent than Edinburgh

Aquila1nz: yeah, trainspotting had subtitles as i recall

yurianimeotaku: The episodes of Lip Service I watch are subtitled for us Americans.

Aquila1nz: lol

fsc_ralst: Sometimes, you read stories where the author has tried to write an accent, and it’s usually illegible

Ceridwyn2: very true

Aquila1nz: accents have to be done with a fairly light touch

Aquila1nz: suggested rather than transcribed

fsc_ralst: Yes, plus, to the character, they don’t have an accent

Ceridwyn2: yes.

yurianimeotaku: Then there’s authors who mix in the native language with English. I find this prevalent in Yuri.

Aquila1nz: one thing i noticed making that list, far more had canon lesbians rather than subtext

Aquila1nz: Murder in Suburbia

Aquila1nz: Macleods daughters

yurianimeotaku: @Aquila Yes, there are more maintext lesbians outside the US.

Aquila1nz: Anne of green gables

fsc_ralst: I don’t think British shows are very good at subtext, on the whole, if they’re going for that type of vibe it’s usually because they intend it to transform into a maintext relationship

Aquila1nz: well no, the lists on wikipedia had more lesbian and bisexual characters in the US media

Aquila1nz: but also mor subtext

Ceridwyn2: Ah, yes. the quintessential of coming of age stories in Anne of Green Gables

fsc_ralst: but wikipedia lies

Aquila1nz: partly because so vey many us shows

yurianimeotaku: How old was the Wiki post?

Aquila1nz: no, this was shows i recognised, even if they wre lesbian for sweeps

Ceridwyn2: last year when a friend was visiting from Scotland we went over to the Anne of Green Gables village

Ceridwyn2: Avonlea Village

fsc_ralst: the US has more lesbians for sweeps than anyone else, I’m sure

Aquila1nz: yeah

yurianimeotaku: In US shows, we get lesbian maintext characters during "Sweeps" and then they vanish.

Aquila1nz: we have lesbians because we feel it’s impirtant to be inclsive

fsc_ralst: We don’t have sweeps, as far as I know, so that doesn’t really happen

Aquila1nz: shorty st is allll about representation

Ceridwyn2: I know, as the UK shows most run 6-10 eps/season

fsc_ralst: The BBC is in love with Sarah Waters so we’ve tended to have a slew of historical lesbian dramas the last few years

Aquila1nz: sometimes bad writig and acting and rushed stories, but they mean well

Ceridwyn2: Sometimes 13 eps

Aquila1nz: bonus that

Liberty Stewart: US is great at bringing in insulting "lesbians"

fsc_ralst: @Liberty – sorry, meant to say, YouTube is very easy, just drop the file into the uploader

yurianimeotaku: IF we’re lucky to get a maintext lesbian character, she’s a minor character. If she’s a main character, her sexuality is downplayed until "Sweeps."

Aquila1nz: of course, it’s also easier to research lesbian characters than subtext xharacters, I’m sure i forgot some series that rang bells backin the day

Ceridwyn2: they did that for years with Kerry Weaver on ER. Her sexuality was brought up maybe a few times/season

Aquila1nz: yeah, we got that Yuri

yurianimeotaku: Sex freaks out middle America, but they LOVE violence. I just don’t get that one.

fsc_ralst: Bad Girls was brilliant because its lesbian romance, in the first three years, was THE romance, and the show was voted audience favourite so was obviously very popular

Ceridwyn2: I still love that show

Aquila1nz: yes, Bad Girls really worked

Ceridwyn2: Even as it’s more than 13 yrs old.

Aquila1nz: and nice that they kept having lesbian characters, even though none fired in the same way

fsc_ralst: yes, they keeped on trying, bless them

Aquila1nz: there must be more series from those writers and producers for the list?

Aquila1nz: did footballers wives etc have any lesbians?

fsc_ralst: yes, I think there was a lesbian storyline, but I didn’t watch the show

Ceridwyn2: I liked Cassie/Roisin at times, and Pat/Sheena. The Selena/Kate (?) pairing I had a harder time with, tho I liked Selena

Ceridwyn2: yes. At least one

fsc_ralst: The Investigator was the name of the soldier one with Helena Baxendale and Laura Fraser

Ceridwyn2: on FBW

Aquila1nz: ta

Liberty Stewart: Well to be fair not all US shows follow that trait. Playboy Club did have lesbian through and through. Then they cancelled this. This is why I’m a movie person.

Ceridwyn2: She played a character in BG in S2 that Yvonne killed with the peanuts

yurianimeotaku: How many times *has* Laura Fraser played a lesbian?

fsc_ralst: 3 or 4

Ceridwyn2: I know of at least 2

Aquila1nz: can we stick to non-US fandoms, rather than discusig the iniquities of American shows?

Aquila1nz: at least 3

Ceridwyn2: Nina’s Heavenly Delights and Lip Service that I know of

fsc_ralst: lots of actresses over here seem to have played gay at some point. Nearly ever actress on Spooks, for instance

fsc_ralst: + the Investigator

Aquila1nz: rite of passage

Ceridwyn2: ooh, I’ll have to check that out

Ceridwyn2: film or tv?

yurianimeotaku: @Aquila I was just replying to a question. Sorry.

fsc_ralst: Film

Aquila1nz: s’cool, just trying to keep on track

Alkmaion: would have to dig out my Identities programs to remember all the non-us movies i´ve seen through the years…

Aquila1nz: made for tv film?

Ceridwyn2: Nicola Walker has a new series coming out in Aug. – Last Tango in Halifax.

fsc_ralst: Do you think that the more maintext, rather than subtext nature of many non-US shows has also impacted their femslashability?

Alkmaion: loved nina´s heavenly delights

Aquila1nz: yeah, i didn’t try and include films on the list, too long

Ceridwyn2: When Night Is Falling, Better than Chocolate

fsc_ralst: No sure

Ceridwyn2: both Canadian

Aquila1nz: subtext is fun, because you’re fixing and finishing suggested stories

Alkmaion: @Aqui: soo true!!!

yurianimeotaku: @ralst Maybe, since it’s maintext, there’s nothing more to write about.

yurianimeotaku: @ralst Unless they kill a favorite character.

fsc_ralst: @yuri yeah, except when they cruely end your OTP grrrr Shorty

Liberty Stewart: Didn’t know When Night is Falling and Better than Chocolate were made for TV. WNIF I think was the better of the two.

Ceridwyn2: Or there’s less specifically to write about but there’s always situations you can put them in

Aquila1nz: there’s always more to write about, but yes, happily ever after leaves less

Ceridwyn2: no, they were both film

Liberty Stewart: I remember the star of When Night is Falling starred in another lesbian film.

Ceridwyn2: Pascale Brusieres (sp?)

fsc_ralst: I think she did two others

yurianimeotaku: @ralst I loved the small explosion when they killed Cat.

Aquila1nz: so what other shows have female centric casts, and are thus femslash friendly?

yurianimeotaku: *oops…spoiler alert*

Aquila1nz: what’s the british Desparaye Housewives?

fsc_ralst: @yuri huh?

Ceridwyn2: I did like the femslashability of Mel/Frankie in "Waking the Dead"

Aquila1nz: don’t think there’s a NZ Women’s murder Club

Liberty Stewart: @Cerid: That’s her. The other lesbian film went by the english title Replay.

yurianimeotaku: @ralst In Lip Service…sorry if you haven’t seen Season 2 yet.

Ceridwyn2: but there’s hardly any fic at all for that.

Aquila1nz: oh, i’ve never watched it, but NZs Go Girls must have femslash potential

lotophaga: Lip Service is a bit silly, tbh. I don’t think it makes a great femslash proposition because it’s so ADD about characters.

Alkmaion: ADD?

Ceridwyn2: I did a fic a few yrs ago – Wire In the Blood wherein Paula has an interest in Carol Jordan but ends up dating one of the newer cops (brain is blanking on the name – was in the books rather than the tv series)

Aquila1nz: Attention deficit – they change a lot to suit the current story

lotophaga: Yeah, it flits frome one POV to the other and simply dumps/kills off characters after brief story arcs

lotophaga: Yes, and are ruthless about which characters are perceived to be populare and which aren’t

Ceridwyn2: Chris Divine was the other character I paired Paula with

fsc_ralst: @AQ Crownies, for Australia

Ceridwyn2: However, I would have loved to see some well written Carol/Paula stories

Aquila1nz: ok

Aquila1nz: i have imdb up in another tab

fsc_ralst: Crownies had loads of potential. Main lesbian character – best character – her girlfriend and the young lawyer who hung on her every word

Aquila1nz: Australian This Life?

Aquila1nz: ooh, sounds good

yurianimeotaku: @lotophaga It also doesn’t help to have to work so many storylines into six episodes.

Aquila1nz: I want to get hold of Kick

fsc_ralst: Not an apt description

Ceridwyn2: after this panel, I’ve got to disappear for a while. Doing rounds at work in a few minutes

ariestess: Tools of the Trade panel begins in 3 minutes!

fsc_ralst: THREE MINUTES

yurianimeotaku: @Aquila I watched Kick and for what I saw as a teen show, I enjoyed it.

Aquila1nz: that was fast!

Ceridwyn2: I’ll leave the room open so I can read it when I get back…in about 1h 1/2 or so

Alkmaion: Paltalk acting up now *sigh*

Aquila1nz: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mmw/2007/09/kick-busting-myths-that-muslims-cant-be-queer-2/

yurianimeotaku: What is Tools of the Trade about?

fsc_ralst: So, if we want one of these shows to take off, it’s advertise the hell out of it first, persuade your nearest and dearest to create for it and hope like hell it catches on?

Aquila1nz: i think so

Aquila1nz: and hope for magic

fsc_ralst: Thanks everyone for a great panel… expect arm twisting to write non-US fandoms in the future

Ceridwyn2: I’ve gotten friends hooked on shows for less.

Aquila1nz: thanks guys, send me entries for my list!

yurianimeotaku: ty panelists

Aquila1nz: I’m aquila1nz on livejournal and twitter

confuzzedly: ty all!

Aquila1nz: or post them to the list on flagshiptv

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